Curse

Rey Lentless · Mar 30, 2006, 07:23 AM // 07:23

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Originally Posted by Symbol

I like the lower damage/higher AP part though, which will help on hard targets. But Ensign is right in that all air needs is a good spammable. If LJ is supposed to be knockdown, then shock arrow will have to take its place. Unfortunately shock arrow is really, really, bad as it stands.

I agree on that. I just don't think we should drop ele spells below 1 sec cast times. I think a natural counter in this game is having interupts for necros and eles, and if we reduce ele spells down to an uninteruptible range, it would disturb the natural counters. Since the cast time is really the control factor on the dps, it does make it difficult.

DGB, I wasn't trying to jump on you or be mean spirited. I just thought it was funny that two people in a row said the same thing to him after he repeated himself about ensign's post. It was simply a joke though, no offense intended to you or the other posters. I just found it humorous.

zoozoc · Mar 30, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

another glaring problem is all of the anti=ele hate that is available t all the other classes, if eles every became popular, it would quickly get smashed by other classes compensating and bringing all of that ele hate no one brings because of course, eles arnt the ones you need to shut down. (atm at least)

SnipiousMax · Mar 30, 2006, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I was watching in observation mode the other day. I saw an Elementalist in the middle of the action...dancing. The Ele would cast Lightning Strike and Lightning Orb when needed, and I think Heal Area on occasion. But for the most part she was ignoring, and being ignored by everyone. Dancing. Not doing anything. Standing there.

Symbol · Mar 31, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

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Then why doesn't it out-DPS it now? The change I proposed wouldn't even add 6 DPS to that combo.

Well, truth be told it did, if you didn't spam CP on more than one target it was- and it was about 10% better if you cast CP every time it refreshed. 6 dps isn't that small, it's around a 15% difference.

This is actually an interesting comparison. I'll concede, that if you've loaded up your bar with the big fire nukes, flare is bad in comparison to immolate, the time burden is too high to get full use out of it, and immolate is more efficient in other ways as well.

But in terms of non AoE damage-flare + MoR + fireball seems quite good, in fact it's a lot better than say, strike + orb + CP, and there's really nothing in air as you've described it that would make it equivalent.

So what prevent someone from taking the above, speccing enough in air to make blinding viable (at least longer than the average removal time), and using ether prodigy for energy management. Air is still too damn inefficient in terms of damage/E to make it attractive.

qwe4rty · Mar 31, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

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Originally Posted by Ensign

*I seriously have no idea what to do with Thunderclap. That skill is scary.

Heh, especially when you consider that using a Shortbow (or any type of bow that has a 2 second attack speed) you can keep an enemy and all the ones near him on the ground for the full duration of the hex. They can't even do something as simple as casting Contemplation of Purity because the attack speed and air flight of the bow matches up so perfectly with the duration of knockdowns.

Mared Text · Mar 31, 2006, 09:30 AM // 09:30

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Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Heh, especially when you consider that using a Shortbow (or any type of bow that has a 2 second attack speed) you can keep an enemy and all the ones near him on the ground for the full duration of the hex. They can't even do something as simple as casting Contemplation of Purity because the attack speed and air flight of the bow matches up so perfectly with the duration of knockdowns.

You can cop between them. Maybe not every time, but if your pounding the button it will go off in 1 or 2 standups.

Ensign · Mar 31, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Well, truth be told it did, if you didn't spam CP on more than one target it was

Yeah, so if the Flare + Mark of Rodgort DPS is so uber why don't you see it being used anywhere? Why is it considered a running joke of the elementalist lines if it dishes out a great 43 DPS?

I explained why in the previous post if you'd bother reading it.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

So what prevent someone from taking the above, speccing enough in air to make blinding viable (at least longer than the average removal time), and using ether prodigy for energy management.

What's to prevent someone from running the dreaded Sever Artery / Aftershock combo? Nothing. You can put whatever skills you want on your bar. There's nothing stopping you.

Unless, you know, you like winning and stuff.

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Originally Posted by qwe4rty

Heh, especially when you consider that using a Shortbow (or any type of bow that has a 2 second attack speed) you can keep an enemy and all the ones near him on the ground for the full duration of the hex.

You could back when the hex didn't end when you hit 0 energy. That got silly pretty quickly. As it stands you'll get around 4-5 knockdowns in before the hex terminates and your character falls apart.

4-5 knockdowns in a row is pretty bloody scary though.

Peace,
-CxE

LightningHell · Mar 31, 2006, 10:50 AM // 10:50

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4-5 knockdowns in a row is pretty bloody scary though.

I wouldn't be happy if you have to waste your Energy Pool to do it. Unless you catch more than 2 people.

Symbol · Mar 31, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

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Yeah, so if the Flare + Mark of Rodgort DPS is so uber why don't you see it being used anywhere? Why is it considered a running joke of the elementalist lines if it dishes out a great 43 DPS?

Because Mark of Rodgort cost 25E and (until recently) had a 20 sec recharge.

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I explained why in the previous post if you'd bother reading it.

I did read it. It was a good explanation of what you wanted flare to do and why immolate was still better in a fire build. Which is, you know, why I conceded that point. What I don't agree with is your evaluation of MoR, basically because it isn't a fire and forget degen hex it's not worth it. Why does it need to be? It's good for stacking on the damage to a single target, it's spammable so that removal isn't any _more_ of a problem than CP (you've spent 50% more energy, but have done almost 50% more damage), and you can combo with it one other (admittedly bad in most circumstances) skill to do lots of damage, to the point where it outshines air, the ostensibly single target line. Is it just that, "air has utility, so fire should always be tops in damage", or is it an unintended consequence, or is it something else I'm not seeing.

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What's to prevent someone from running the dreaded Sever Artery / Aftershock combo? Nothing. You can put whatever skills you want on your bar. There's nothing stopping you.

The _point_ being that fire now does better damage against single targets for less energy. Since the main reason people choose air is blinding, and you don't need 16 air to get most of the benefit (blind is a high priority removal) why isn't just going fire for the damage and enough air for blinding better than going for pure air? Where's the incentive for specializing in it?

I'm not being very constructive here, so here are my suggestions.
Make orb 10E. Make shock arrow do 12...57 damage. Air is now the premiere single target damage line with great utility.

Byron · Mar 31, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

This is actually an interesting comparison. I'll concede, that if you've loaded up your bar with the big fire nukes, flare is bad in comparison to immolate, the time burden is too high to get full use out of it, and immolate is more efficient in other ways as well.

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The _point_ being that fire now does better damage against single targets for less energy.

But then there is the new factions skill, extinguish, which I call the mini-martyr, which would make immolate, or any type of burning attacks, suck once again. I imagine extinguish is going to become standard equipment on GvG builds.

Wasteland Squidget · Mar 31, 2006, 07:16 PM // 19:16

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Originally Posted by Byron

But then there is the new factions skill, extinguish, which I call the mini-martyr, which would make immolate, or any type of burning attacks, suck once again. I imagine extinguish is going to become standard equipment on GvG builds.

I wouldn't say that. Extinguish is too high of an energy cost to be spammed, so it won't necessarily hit when a lot of people are burning. Most burning durations are actually quite short. It's got some fun potential if your entire team gets hit by Rodgort's Invocation, but the real use of Extinguish is going to be a disease counter.

Seef II · Mar 31, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Err, no one's running immolate anyway, but Extinguish is a pretty good disease counter. The heal if anyone's burning is just gravy since the durations on that condition are so short.

Ensign · Apr 01, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

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Originally Posted by Symbol

What I don't agree with is your evaluation of MoR, basically because it isn't a fire and forget degen hex it's not worth it. Why does it need to be?

Because 7 pips of degen is not worth the investment of a character to babysit the hex and make it work.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

It's good for stacking on the damage to a single target

Incorrect. It is an ok way to stack extra damage onto a single target provided that you have *unmitigated access* to that target for more than 10 seconds. Unless your plan is to beat on a warrior that simply isn't realistic.

Mark of Rodgort is the *least* flexible bit of damage available to an elementalist, yet even at 'only' 15 energy it's *still* comparable in damage output to much, much more flexible skills. It is comparable to those other skills situationally, as you keep pointing out, but what you keep failing to see is that those situations are so rare as to be virtually non-existant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

to the point where it outshines air, the ostensibly single target line.

Mark of Rodgort + Flare guy outperforms air guys when all of the following conditions are true:

1) Damage compression (spike) isn't remotely relevant - all that matters is raw DPS.
2) Your target does not react to you beating on him at all. Every Flare gets to hit and trigger the Mark.
3) The other team does not bother removing hexes.
4) We're looking at relatively long timeframes.

And then, even given all that, it's not exactly blowing it away.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

or is it something else I'm not seeing.

Well maybe you don't realize that your entire argument is that 'fire is a better single-target damage line because it has Mark of Rodgort', and that is really just a terrible, terrible version of the 'swords do more damage than axes because you have Sever Artery' argument.

You also have no idea how Mark of Rodgort works in practice, and seemingly only a vague idea about how damage and targeting work in general.

To try and explain it in simpler terms:

Conjure Phantasm is strong because it's fast acting, efficient, and non-committal. You can toss it around on anyone you want and it'll deal some efficient damage before it's removed. Because it's non-committal and spammable the presence of Conjure Phantasm on a character doesn't mean a whole lot. However, if you want to make someone a focused target, a pre-cast Conjure will likely still be there, and the degen will add some damage to enhance the spike when your team converges.

Mark of Rodgort requires a heavy commitment. You cannot spread it around because it needs to be babysat to get any amount of efficiency out of it. Because you have to babysit a target to get that damage out of your hex, it is only particularly useful on a focused target. The Mark won't innocently whittle down someone's health and still be there helping when the spike comes, when the Mark comes up the other team knows who you're after. Even worse, targets who know they are being focused tend to kite or otherwise defend themselves, which makes them nigh-impossible to babysit, and if Mark isn't being babysat it doesn't do *anything*.

These are concerns that are true regardless of how much Mark of Rodgort costs.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

The _point_ being that fire now does better damage against single targets for less energy.

No, it doesn't for reasons that have been well documented and you outright refuse to see. You keep making ridiculous statements based upon this idea that Mark of Rodgort makes the entire air line obsolete for damage, and I have having trouble restraining myself from simply laughing in your face.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

I'm not being very constructive here, so here are my suggestions.Make orb 10E. Make shock arrow do 12...57 damage.

I wouldn't argue with Orb costing 10E though it'd be really, really good if it did. It's a skill that really wants to cost 12 or so and it held back by a lack of granularity in the system.

Shock Arrow dealing 57 damage would be retarded. I'm not even going to dignify that suggestion with an explanation beyond that.

Peace,
-CxE

Symbol · Apr 01, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

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1) Damage compression (spike) isn't remotely relevant - all that matters is raw DPS.

You can spike with fireball. Granted not quite as hard as with orb, but you get the added benefit of missing less often (it's generally slightly harder to dodge fireball than orb because of the AoE).

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2) Your target does not react to you beating on him at all. Every Flare gets to hit and trigger the Mark.

Every flare doesn't have to hit since the burn lasts for 4 seconds.

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3) The other team does not bother removing hexes.

Is hex removal typically so prevalent that this matters? I mean Mark is pretty low on the priority scale. But ok, if removal is that strong s.t it gets removed more than every 10 seconds or so, that torpedoes its usefulness.

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4) We're looking at relatively long timeframes.

Ok, so let's limit it to 10 seconds and under.

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Conjure Phantasm is strong because it's fast acting, efficient, and non-committal. You can toss it around on anyone you want and it'll deal some efficient damage before it's removed. Because it's non-committal and spammable the presence of Conjure Phantasm on a character doesn't mean a whole lot. However, if you want to make someone a focused target, a pre-cast Conjure will likely still be there, and the degen will add some damage to enhance the spike when your team converges.

On an air elementalist you generally won't have enough points to make CP last long enough to do this because to spam CP you need points in energy storage for prodigy. I've run the strike/orb/phantasm build and I'm really curious as to what attribute layout you're using that makes this possible, because I never had the energy to keep CP on multiple people and dps. It was just a way to supplement my damage output, and as such the much touted flexiblity benefits never came into play.

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Mark of Rodgort requires a heavy commitment. You cannot spread it around because it needs to be babysat to get any amount of efficiency out of it. Because you have to babysit a target to get that damage out of your hex, it is only particularly useful on a focused target. The Mark won't innocently whittle down someone's health and still be there helping when the spike comes, when the Mark comes up the other team knows who you're after. Even worse, targets who know they are being focused tend to kite or otherwise defend themselves, which makes them nigh-impossible to babysit, and if Mark isn't being babysat it doesn't do *anything*.

But the whole point is that MoR is just there to make your spam skill more efficient. Presumably if someone is going to kite out your range they'll do it whether you use mark or are just blasting the shit out of them with air nukes. Yeah if you can't keep hitting them you've wasted your mark, but how is that worse than an orb missing? At least you're likely to get 6 or 7 seconds burning out of it so get SOME damage for your investment.

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No, it doesn't for reasons that have been well documented and you outright refuse to see. You keep making ridiculous statements based upon this idea that Mark of Rodgort makes the entire air line obsolete for damage, and I have having trouble restraining myself from simply laughing in your face.

I understand your argument. It's not rocket science and repeating yourself isn't particularly helpful nor is it appreciated. You seem to be under the misconception that I consider MoR as some sort of replacement for CP, or degeneration hexes in general. I'm not. CP is more flexible, I get it.

Look, the problem is that you're treating MoR as analagous to CP, as in something you spread and forget and will occasionally soften targets for a spike, and there are two things wrong with that:
* You can't actually do this on a primary elementalist and still dps with air nukes because of energy and time issues.
* It isn't how the MoR + flare guy is going to use it anyway

It's more accurate to treat MoR as just another damage spell that just happens to do damage through degeneration. Even if you only get 10 seconds burning out of it (which is equivalent to 6 seconds of access to the target) that's still 140 damage for 15E, which is better than most of your other spells.

Granted if you actually calculate the final dps under these assumptions, they don't come out much better than strike + orb + CP. But it seems rather pessimistic to assume that you'll NEVER have access to a rodgorted target for more than 6 seconds.

So the question is how long are you going to be able to pound on a marked target, and how often it's removed. Now if you claim that it's going to get removed way too often and that no one is ever going to be in range for more than 6 seconds, I will defer to your greater experience and let it drop. But please don't make this bullshit strawman argument about how I don't realize that MoR is less useful than CP, it's lame and doesn't get us anywhere.

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Shock Arrow dealing 57 damage would be retarded. I'm not even going to dignify that suggestion with an explanation beyond that.

Shock arrow has a 1s recharge. Currently that would put at ice spear equivalency with a bit less time commitement and twice the range. If that's a problem then just raise the recharge to 2s. It wouldn't matter because you're going to have strike and orb on your bar anyway, so you never get to cast SA as often as it recharges.

Javelin was air's quick recharge spell, but no longer, so shock arrow has to replace it. That means doing at least as much damage per hit as javelin-just making it spammable isn't going to cut it unless you want to violate your "don't make spammables good" rule.

EDIT: Changed and clarified a few things.

Sientir · Apr 01, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Just a few thoughts I had while reading this thread:
- The developers were apparently quite scared of the burning condition: it never lasts very long. True, it is damaging, but honestly...not like people just random die from degen while wading through lava. So why is it that the burning condition never lasts very long? Just something I'm kinda wondering about...
- I really do like a number of Ensign's proposed changes to ele skills. Some that particularly stood out to me: Cost switch on those two wards. The current pricing never made much sense to me either. o.O Also, with those two AoEs, Searing and Eruption, the application of the condition with each pulse would actually make them useful; I really like that idea.
- Ele's do have to do a lot of E-Management (especially via elites) and that is definately annoying. I've found that I really like Ether Prodigy just for the potency of it's regen, but it is very annoying that ele's have almost no ability to use any other elites due to the need to use e-management.
- A possible change to the attunements would be to make them stances (though that would throw off Ether Renewel, I don't think that particular ability is used by many just because Prodigy is, at least imo, so much better). Not elemental attunement, just the regular ones. Or, perhaps make all of them stances, though that would kill dual attunements. By making them stances, they are FAR harder to remove, since currently we only have Wild Blow as an option. And from my observations, not many warriors carry that particular ability.
- Exhaustion is rediculously everywhere. Meteor has it, Gale has it, Shower, etc. Some interesting things to do is examine which skills have it and which don't. Rodgort's doesn't (and is arguably one of the best fire abilities due to the size of it's AoE, the raw damage, the burning effect, and the amazingly low, for an ele, 15 second recharge), Firestorm doesn't, Lightning Orb. It seems like any ele ability capable of KD causes exhaustion. Surge, Shower, Meteor, Gale. All 4 of those cause KD, all of them cause Exhaustion. Also interestingly, when examined, warrior hammer KDs function thusly: Drain all adrenaline if non-elite. Anyway...just random observations.
- Speaking of Warrior's, do any of their elite's cause a total drain of adrenaline? I can't think of any atm...so why should ele elite's arguably have a similar effect (exhuastion) in decreasing the access to a vital resource in the profession's ability to use skills. Again, I guess the point of losing all adrenaline and losing 10 max energy aren't totally similar, but they do have a sorta similar effect.
- Random input, if i'm not mistaken, there is a new ele e-management skill showing up with a name along the lines of Second Wind that gives a point of energy for each point of exhaustion (just looked it up, non-linked, which could be good). Naturally, it causes exhaustion, but at least it does allow ele's to gain some massive energy from exhaustion.
- Why the heck do the more major ele energy gain skills hamper the ele's max energy?! Ether Prodigy causes Exhaustion, anyway...this energy boon ability they're adding (according to GWOnline, anyway), causes exhaustion...what is it with A-net and exhaustion?! Sorry, getting slightly sidetracked.

Anyway, I like Ensign's list of skill changes, and I think they make sense.

SnipiousMax · Apr 01, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

What hope is there of seeing changes like this soon?

Roupe · Apr 01, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

I personally would like elementalist to be able to use their aoe spells against wells & traps. Still this would do nothing to eles supportive role.

Letting elementalist be able to target ground and thus giving them an option for strategical shelling certain key points would greatly increase their effectiveness.

Arnt Elementalists supposed to be artilleries and not spectators?

Ensign · Apr 02, 2006, 10:22 AM // 10:22

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Is hex removal typically so prevalent that this matters?

How exactly do you think that teams remove hexes typically? Do you think they actually mention every hex over vent and decide if they want to remove it or not? Hexes on priority targets just get pulled regardless of identity. You have to figure that every hex is either important, or covering up something important, so there's really no reason to clutter up vent holding a discussion. If something crippling is sticking people let the team know, but generally hexes just get pulled. If you want to make something stick, you have to overload the removal.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

because I never had the energy to keep CP on multiple people and dps. It was just a way to supplement my damage output, and as such the much touted flexiblity benefits never came into play.

I don't understand this at all. What are you trying to DPS with? You're an Air guy with Orb and Strike. You spread some degen with CP then toss around mini-spikes with Orb -> Strike, and randomly Strike people on occasion.

The appeal of degen + nukes is damage compression. That's the whole reason why that character is good. Does that make any sense?

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Originally Posted by Symbol

But the whole point is that MoR is just there to make your spam skill more efficient.

How many times does the Mark have to trigger to *actually* make Flare more efficient? How much burning do you have to get out of the skill to get a comparable efficiency out of it compared to other established benchmarks?

Is it worth all of that effort just to get something that is strikingly mediocre?

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Originally Posted by Symbol

* It isn't how the MoR + flare guy is going to use it anyway

Well of course not because MoR + flare is the most inflexible thing in the game. You don't have to explain how that guy's going to try and play becaues *he doesn't have a choice*. What I am trying to pound into your thick skull is that what MoR + Flare guy does is *complete and utter shit*, and that he isn't even terribly efficient at it.

This isn't even relevant. I feel like I'm trying to explain why PvP builds are the way they are with someone who's PvP experience consists entirely of beating on practice dummies.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

But it seems rather pessimistic to assume that you'll NEVER have access to a rodgorted target for more than 6 seconds.

Of course you'll have access to a Marked target every once in a while. There will also be many, many situations where you have virtually no access to the target and your 'combo' fails spectacularly.

There is an enormous difference between how skills, and characters, would perform under completely optimal conditions, and how they can be *reasonably expected* to perform in actual matches.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Now if you claim that it's going to get removed way too often and that no one is ever going to be in range for more than 6 seconds, I will defer to your greater experience and let it drop.

Unless you want to play rambo the caster, you have about 3 seconds from the time someone realizes he's a priority target until he's some combination of enchant stacked and out of range. Naturally there's some variation involved but that's generally how it works out in my experience.

That's also why I'm so big on Air getting another strike-esque followup, because that 3rd hit is the last one that ever matters - even that one fails fairly often. The 4th hit isn't even relevant a vast majority of the time.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

But please don't make this bullshit strawman argument about how I don't realize that MoR is less useful than CP, it's lame and doesn't get us anywhere.

Well excuse me for giving you the benefit of the doubt. Here I was assuming that this whole time you just didn't understand *why* a couple goofy skills wouldn't replace single target damage. But if you do understand it...why are you even defending the original argument?

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Shock arrow has a 1s recharge. Currently that would put at ice spear equivalency with a bit less time commitement and twice the range.

A 1s recharge on a spell is a really bad joke...it's like no one's ever heard of an aftercast. That 1s recharge is really just an additional quarter second gap with a caveat that it's a bit harder to maximize (since you can't queue things up). I really don't know why they even bothered.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

If that's a problem then just raise the recharge to 2s.

Once you put an actual recharge on the skill it turns into a different beast. Then you can start upping the damage and turning it into a reasonable projectile attack. But when you can machine gun it you have to account for that increased utility with a reduced damage.

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Originally Posted by Symbol

Javelin was air's quick recharge spell, but no longer, so shock arrow has to replace it.

Hmmm? Javelin just got a recharge buff. It was never a spammable. That new flare is the first one for the line.

Javelin does cost 10 as well. It's really a mess and a pain to fix because of it. Obviously I like my proposal but you could take it a lot of different ways.

In any case it's not remotely comparable to a 5 energy spam skill so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

Peace,
-CxE

Akane · Apr 05, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Just wanted to say that I actually made good use of noobish Flare in the Factions battles...

Since there was no guarantee of rolling even a single monk for a twelve man party, I concluded self-heal was rather essential (beyond my continually spamming Heal Party). So good old Aura of Restoration and Flare were employed to ensure I didn't get ripped by a solo warrior or pesky assassin.

Keeping a Mantra of Concentration cover and throw in the odd Fireball, meant any roving assailants soon unexpectantly found themselves on the losing end of the face-off.

It really seemed lame using that AoR and Flare combo. Yet, in conjunction with some AOE spells, I could take out most NPC-held stations by myself.

wheel · Apr 05, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

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Originally Posted by Akane

Just wanted to say that I actually made good use of noobish Flare in the Factions battles...

Since there was no guarantee of rolling even a single monk for a twelve man party, I concluded self-heal was rather essential (beyond my continually spamming Heal Party). So good old Aura of Restoration and Flare were employed to ensure I didn't get ripped by a solo warrior or pesky assassin.

Keeping a Mantra of Concentration cover and throw in the odd Fireball, meant any roving assailants soon unexpectantly found themselves on the losing end of the face-off.

It really seemed lame using that AoR and Flare combo. Yet, in conjunction with some AOE spells, I could take out most NPC-held stations by myself.

AoR won't save you from a direct confrontation a Warrior, especially since its inefficiencies in healing per spell forces you to cast a lot more to heal yourself, which means you're going to be standing in one spot a lot more, letting the warrior beat on you even more. In other words, it barely even helps versus a warrior.